Life Boost with Amelia

Ep. 76 | Is the Grass Greener? Tips for Vets Considering Industry and How to Boost Retention in Veterinary Practices with Experts Dr. Debra Nickelson and Stacy Pursell

• Amelia Knight Pinkston • Season 2 • Episode 76

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In this episode of the Life Boost with Amelia podcast, Dr. Amelia and her guests dive into factors contributing to the high burnout and low retention rates in vet med and what we can do about it. Joined by two guest experts in the Industry, Dr. Debra Nickelson and executive recruiter Stacy Pursell, they discuss career transitions, the pros and cons of industry roles, and practical solutions for practice owners to improve retention and cultivate a positive culture that attracts and retains ideal candidates. The discussion also highlights the importance of networking, leadership, and effective communication for a sustainable and fulfilling career in veterinary medicine and addresses common challenges like imposter syndrome and avoiding uncomfortable conversations. 

00:00 Introduction to Life Boost with Amelia

01:01 Addressing Burnout in Veterinary Medicine

02:02 Meet the Experts: Dr. Debra Nickelson and Stacy Pursell

05:01 Challenges and Opportunities in Veterinary Careers

11:55 The Reality of Transitioning to Industry

24:04 Creating a Positive Work Environment

40:28 Enhancing Veterinary Education with Business and Communication Skills

41:09 The Importance of Negotiation and Leadership in Vet Med

42:04 Navigating Challenging Conversations

43:29 Creating Accessible and Fear-Free Work Environments

45:29 Overcoming Fear and Embracing Career Changes

55:41 The Power of Networking in Veterinary Careers

58:55 Finding Fulfillment and Avoiding Regret

01:05:22 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Resources mentioned:

Stacy Pursell:

Debra Nickelson, DVM: 

Life Boost with Amelia resources:

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Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical, mental health, or professional advice. I am a certified health and life coach, not a licensed medical or mental health professional. Please consult with a healthcare provider before making any changes to your physical or mental health routines. If you are experiencing a crisis, seek help from a qualified professional or contact emergency services.

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Welcome to the Life Boost with Amelia podcast where we're changing the narrative around what true health and success look like. They should give you energy, not drain it. I'm your host, Dr. Amelia multi-passionate integrative health and life coach, entrepreneur, and recovered burnout veterinarian. Together, we'll explore the science behind how your brain and body work, including the unconscious mind while also connecting with what your heart needs in order to stand up to the norm of feeling stuck on a hamster wheel-working hard yet feeling exhausted and not where you want to be- and instead live a life that makes you excited to get out of bed in the morning and in love with who you see when you look in the mirror. The reality is if you do what everyone else is doing, you're not going to feel good. Let's break the norm. Hi friend. I have two amazing guests with me today. And I'm excited for this conversation because we all have unique experiences and perspectives related to a major challenge in vet med and that being the high burnout rate and clinical practice not being sustainable. And so many hospitals being understaffed. And any challenge really is an amazing opportunity to identify what doesn't work so that we can get curious about what does and conversations like these, where we all have different perspectives and a different puzzle piece helps to look at these challenges in a really holistic way to address. root issues and think outside the box, when it comes to creating a more sustainable future. Whether you're a vet who's feeling burned out or stuck in your career and you know that something needs to change, or you're just looking for new opportunities for growth within the profession, or you're a practice owner really wanting to stand out and thrive in vet med while attracting and retaining a dream team, I know you're going to get a lot out of this episode. The two guests with me today, know the veterinary industry really well. Dr. Debra Nichelson is a veterinarian who has enjoyed an extensive career within the veterinary industry, responsible for professional services, product development and management, delivering continuing education, strategic planning, regulatory compliance, marketing, technical selling, and business development. She is the founder of Trillium C LLC, focusing on collaboration, consulting and coaching. She assists veterinarians transitioning from practice to industry. Because of her previous positions with several industry partners and working with a variety of veterinary practices, dr. Nichelson has the ability to mentor and provide guidance in navigating the transition. Dr. Nichelson has served on the board of directors, secretary, and president with AAV and currently represents the organization of the AVMA house of delegates. She has a program chair for the adult leading and learning track of VMX and she serves as an ally and speaker for neurodiverse veterinary professionals. She received her DVM and MBA from the university of Minnesota and currently lives in Kansas city with two cats. Stacy Purcell as an internationally respected executive search consultant and recruiter based in the us and ranked in the top 1% of search consultants worldwide. Considered the go-to expert in the animal health industry and veterinary profession for talent centric solutions, stacy is a workplace workforce expert, certified personnel consultant, and certified employee retention specialist. Stacy is the founder and CEO of the vet recruiter, executive search and professional search firms serving the animal health industry and veterinary profession. She has 25 plus years of executive search and recruiting experience in the animal health industry and veterinary profession. And has placed more professionals in positions in the animal health industry and vet profession in the United States than any other recruiter. She was the first recruiter to focus exclusively on animal health and veterinary medicine. As a thought leader and key opinion leader, Stacy has been quoted in CNN, money magazine, today's veterinary business, AAHA, nAVC, AVMA, DVM 360,VIN, the fountain report and veterinary practice news. Stacy's philanthropic experience includes her currently serving as an advisory board member of the professional science master's program at Kansas state university's Olathe campus and previously serving on the board of directors of the national association of personnel services. She is also on the Kansas bio-sciences workforce committee. Stacy has also the host of the people of animal health podcast.

Amelia:

You both have done such impressive work in our profession, welcome and thank you both so much for taking the time to be here.

Stacy Pursell:

Well, thank you so much for having me here.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

Thank you very much and pleased to be joining Stacy on this call.

Amelia:

Yeah, great group! So This conversation started over the summer at the AVMA convention when we first connected. And because I work with a lot of vets who are looking for change, I was attending one of your lectures, Deb, about transitioning into industry. And one of the things that really stood out to me was you sharing that Often when you're connecting with vets,

and asking them why they want to go into industry

Amelia:

they're sometimes sharing why they want to leave clinical practice versus why they actually are interested in industry or why they feel like it's a really good fit. And I see that a lot on the coaching side where vets are feeling stuck or burned out or they know that they want a change, but they are really just focusing on why they want to get away or what they want to get away from versus what they want instead.. And to start, Deb, do you mind sharing a little bit more about your experience? What are the reasons that you're hearing vets saying that they want to leave clinical practice?

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

Thank you, Amelia. When I first started coaching veterinarians in their careers, I was hearing so many similar themes. I hate my job. My boss is awful. The clients are too demanding. The hours are too long. It's just, it was one negative thing after another. And I'd always ask, Why do you want to get into veterinary industry? And I was hearing these negative answers so frequently and then I keep asking and I remember, one person, I got frustrated and I said this is why I did it: I was looking for more long term goals and objectives and to make a contribution to the animal health industry. This is why some other people have done it. I says pick one or make something up and just be positive because every encounter is a potential interview. These people don't know if I'm hiring. They don't know if I know somebody who's hiring. They don't know if Stacy has contacted me and says, Hey, do you know somebody who might be interested in this particular job? Every encounter is a potential interview, and I stress that a lot in my speaking engagements and my writings, and maybe some people have paid attention because lately I've been hearing some more positive things like, I want to teach other professionals. I want to educate, I want to Help other professionals. I want to make a difference in the profession. So I'm hearing some more positive reasons for being interested in veterinary industry. which is really encouraging.

Amelia:

Yeah. That is great. It sounds like it's that switch of having a negative brain filter where you're only noticing all the things that are bad, to being able to see the positives and what you want. And that certainly feels better, too, making a change because you're excited about something versus everything feeling so draining,

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

Right.

Amelia:

Thanks for sharing that. And what about you, Stacy, on the recruiting side? I'd love to hear what are some of the reasons that you're seeing vets looking for a change. And then I know you also are interacting with the leaders. And what I've been noticing is that a lot of the practice owners or managers and medical directors, a lot of them are feeling overwhelmed. So what are you hearing from both of those sides?

Stacy Pursell:

I agree with Deb. Deb and I have known each other for a long time in the industry. We're both involved in the AAIV. Deb said, every encounter is an interview, or every encounter is a potential interview. So That is a hundred percent true. When a hiring manager, in industry is looking at candidates, they don't want somebody that is a negative Nelly. They don't want somebody that's trying to run away from something that's negative. Instead they're looking for people that are wanting to go to something for a more positive reason, like Deb said, to educate. So from my point of view any interaction that you have with somebody in the industry, you want to be positive. You don't want to bad mouth your current employer or give negative reasons for wanting to leave your situation. If you're looking to make a change from practice to industry or you're looking to make a change from one practice to another it needs to be for a positive reason. Like I'm looking for some career growth, not that I'm trying to run away from a negative situation.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's huge. And what about with the leadership and from the practice owner side, how do you think they're doing? Or is it more positive mindset or are they feeling negative or discouraged on the hiring side?

Stacy Pursell:

That, that's a very individual, question, everybody's different. So there are some practice owners or some people in leadership that are thriving that, love what they're doing. They love the profession. They can't imagine why somebody else wouldn't love, the profession and then you've got other people that are not happy. So a lot of it has to do with. The individual practice, the culture or the people in the practice, but it really comes down to leadership. So if a person in leadership is not having a good experience it's a self reflection. Maybe it's an opportunity for them to look, you know, if they're in a leadership role and they have the ability to influence or drive change maybe they need to look at themselves and see what could they be doing to impact the culture of the practice or in the business that they're leading.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's such a good point to turn inward and let that be a sign to really get clear on what they need. I think one challenge with what you both are sharing of it being more about what they're trying to get away from and sometimes that negativity and needing to be more positive. I think one of the challenges, I like looking at things from a nervous system perspective and when you are starting to feel burnt out, that's like that freeze or shut down nervous system state where you are feeling pretty hopeless and depressed and you have that negative brain filter and your brain is starting to make these big generalizations of"vet med is threatening", or"that whole job or all of clinical practice is threatening" and so it can make it hard to be noticing those positive things or what they want. And one thing I find really helpful is to start getting really specific, to start getting curious about, okay, what specifically about this job is not working for me. And so to get a little bit more into the specifics. Deb, I'd love to explore a little of the expectation versus reality when it comes to a career in industry. What are some of the reasons why vets want to go into industry? And is the grass always greener? What are some of the pros and cons for who truly would be a good fit?

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

That's right. Thank you. I like to say that it's not all rainbows and unicorns. And I think Valerie Reagan has said that before. And it's really helpful for veterinarians that are thinking about career and industry to talk to somebody who's in that already. So they can explore the possibilities. There's so many types of roles in industry. Many people start in technical services, professional services, and that's very much an outgoing of the company. That could mean a lot of travel. That could mean, a number of speaking engagements. It could mean Weekends, evenings at times at veterinary conventions and meetings and that some people aren't thinking about that. They think it's going to be, uh, 9 to 4 job and at home on the computer all day. That's not it. There are definitely roles that have hybrid workspaces where people go to the office part of the weekends and work from home part of the week, but, people have to look for those roles. A lot of the roles, if they're at home based There's quite a bit of travel. It's either a sales focused or a technical selling focus. So it's meeting with the customers who are veterinarians, of course, the veterinarians are, purchasing the company's products and services. If somebody isn't very comfortable with public speaking that might not be the role for them and, or they can get more comfortable with it by just starting to do it, do it in their clinics, have some client seminars do some educational programs at schools, for instance, and just get more comfortable with public speaking. But yeah, we say it's not all rainbows and unicorns. There are challenges with any type of position. Another thing about the companies is that they're very much driven by numbers. Especially if it's a publicly traded company quarterly reports are really important. And there are expectations of in numbers and that involves the whole team and includes the veterinarians. If somebody is not comfortable with pretty much asking for the business that might be something to work on or to think about another role in, in the companies.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's so helpful and you've mentioned so many important things there like I, I think one reason those who don't like clinical practice are feeling frustrated with it is that focus on the numbers and so that is really helpful to just have that mindset that there could be some numbers, maybe not it being dealing with the pet owners in that way, but still having some pressure with the numbers. And I think also it can be easy to think, okay, if I'm away from clinical practice, then I will feel more safe. But it also does mean transitioning to these new skills that may feel really outside of your comfort zone or traveling or public speaking. And so if you think that's helpful to at least have that in mind of thinking like, okay, am I ready for This change that may be stressful, but in a new way,

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

And case in point some people want to get into industry because they think they don't have to deal with disgruntled clients. That's not necessarily true. Sometimes the veterinarians that have that disgruntled client will say, Hey, call the company, let them deal with it. If there's some, perceived vaccine reaction or perceived adverse event. Or perceived lack of expected response. And there was one time where a disgruntled client actually came to the office looking for me. I was out of town, of course, but I thought it was pretty funny. But these things can happen. Veterinarians have to, be willing to do that communication that they've always done.

Amelia:

Yeah. That's important to highlight, right? You're going to find difficult people no matter where you go. And so those are important skills of just feeling more comfortable. And from a nervous system perspective, I always like having that mindset of someone who's being difficult is just in the fight stress response. It just means something in their own life is feeling hard or stressful and overwhelming. It doesn't have to be personal, but instead, how can you get curious about what needs to happen to help this person to feel supported and safe? And I also I love how you suggest just connecting and talking to those in industry. And we connected through AAIV and I do just want to give a shout out of how helpful that group has been and how awesome the networking opportunities are. And the C. E. Stacy, I know you're going to be having a talk soon, and there are lots of lectures to help with going into industry. So for someone who is considering it, even I highly recommend joining.

Stacy Pursell:

Yeah, I'm going to be doing a talk for AAIV in December on how to stay relevant throughout your career. But going back to the question that you just asked Deb about, is the grass greener? Deb and I have actually done talks about this at conferences, is the grass greener?

Amelia:

I love it

Stacy Pursell:

And like Deb said I had someone call me up one day and he said, I'm looking for a job where I can stay home with my family. Not have to leave my house. I want to work in my pajamas. I want to stay there and never leave. And I just laughed. And I think Deb, you and I probably shared that story with you at some point that those jobs don't really exist. And the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Sometimes when veterinarian is in practice and they're thinking about going into industry, they don't realize, sometimes in many of the jobs there's this travel component and some people they can't travel for a variety of reasons. Some people don't enjoy public speaking, that's a requirement if going to be in a professional services position

Amelia:

Yeah,

Stacy Pursell:

And like Deb said, the majority of veterinarians that I've seen go industry, they typically start in a professional services role unless they're going into research and development. And in that case, they often have a PhD in addition to the DVM. But once you get your foot in the door, and that's the key, you've got to get your foot in the door. Once you're able to get into industry there are so many opportunities out there that people don't even know exist. Years ago, he's retired, but years ago, the person that headed up regulatory affairs for Coca Cola was a veterinarian. Years ago, the person that headed up quality assurance for Campbell soup was a veterinarian. So there are so many positions out there that, people don't even realize the roles that veterinarians can play. But, one thing, and I know Deb would agree with this, is probably the number one skill that industry needs is people that are flexible. So flexibility and also resiliency, because Deb, you and I have lived through this world of mergers and acquisitions over the years. There's so many companies out there that used to exist that have gotten bought by other companies, so they're not there anymore. and even if your company's not getting acquired your role could change, you could get asked to play a different role or take on a project and you just got to be resilient. But I also want to say that, sometimes when a veterinarian is looking to make a move, or they think they're looking to make a move to industry they may just be in the wrong practice. It may not be industry that they're looking for. It could be that they're just not in a culture that aligns with their values. And I've placed plenty of veterinarians who, I was talking to, and they thought they needed to go from practice to industry, but I place them in a different practice where now they're thriving because they're in a situation now where they're in the right culture, whereas before they weren't. If there are veterinarians out there that think that industry is the solution, that's not always the case. Sometimes it's just finding a different practice setting.

Amelia:

I think that is so important to highlight and I've seen that too of it's just not the right fit. And I know when I was an associate and I was feeling burnt out, I really at that point just felt wherever I go, it's going to be pretty similar. And I had a few other positions previously, but. Now, and I went into relief work. So that was one way of just getting exposed to the variety of options and environments out there, but also connecting with other companies, it really is: sky's the limit with the different opportunities out there, even within clinical practice. so do you mind sharing a little bit, Stacy, what's the spectrum of options that you are seeing? Because we are no longer at that 40 to 50 hour work week, working weekends all the time. It seems like there is quite a bit of variety now.

Stacy Pursell:

Yeah, the world has changed. So in August of this year, I began my, so I finished my 27th year. working in the veterinary profession starting here. When I first started, I would talk to veterinarians that were working 60, 65, 70, 80 hours a week in some cases, and some were working six, seven days a week. And, now full time in a lot of, specialty practice situations are, 32 hours a week. And so if we're talking about in the practice setting we see all kinds of things, we, of course there's GP, there's emergency, there's urgent care. So we have urgent care positions now if somebody just wants to work on a weekend, if they just want to work Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and not work during the rest of the week, they can do that in urgent care. If they want to work GP and they want to work three or four days a week practices want them to work some weekends, like maybe alternating weekends, but there's practices where they can work, three or four days a week. You can work longer hours, fewer days there's still people that, work in er that work, only overnights. But in terms of the schedule, there's about any kind of schedule that you would want out there somewhere in veterinary medicine. And then on the industry side, like Deb was saying, it's not always Monday through Friday. You have to work evening. Sometimes you're doing a dinner presentation. You have to travel on the weekends to a trade show or conference. But there is flexibility in industry because a lot of times when you are home, you get to work from home and, if your child is in a dance recital or a performance or you have a doctor's appointment, you can schedule those things because you don't have to get a veterinarian to fill in for you like you would in clinical practice. So you have more scheduling flexibility if you're working in industry. But we see all kinds of different schedules that are worked by veterinarians.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's great to hear, and I think, for anyone who's feeling stuck, I always encourage first, just allowing yourself to dream what would the ideal scenario look like, if you're in clinical practice, without having to figure out all the logistics first, just at least connecting with what is the ideal, and then you can start exploring what's available but thinking about, what would your schedule look like or how many days do you need in order to recover? Or what kind of environment makes it so that you don't need as long to recover in between because you're not quite as drained. The more you can get clear on that the more it does help to figure out even what path do you need to go on next.

Stacy Pursell:

There's options.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's so important. And so I'm curious, Stacy, what's the difference between the hospitals that you see that are thriving when it comes to high retention rates versus the ones that are struggling with low retention rates or being understaffed?

Stacy Pursell:

I'd say a lot of it comes down to leadership and culture. People want to work for those practices or even in industry people want to work for companies that have a good culture. They want to work for places that have high standards. They want to work for places that just, align with their values, a culture of respect. That's really important. If if they feel respected, but they see a coworker disrespected, or if they're allowed to have a client disrespect somebody then, then people, in fact, I just placed a veterinarian. she was in a practice where she said there was a big culture of disrespect, and she said it wasn't even so much her being disrespected, but the practice allowed clients to disrespect the staff, and she observed this, and that alone caused her to want to change practices, so I just placed her in a new practice, um, because she was looking for a better culture of respect, and our client has a good culture of respect. So I would say that those practices that are thriving they have leadership that are good. They have good leaders and they have, They have a good culture where people want to work.

Amelia:

Yeah. Respect is so huge and that culture of just feeling safe and supported that psychological safety I think is so huge. And that's one project I'm working on now is this workplace satisfaction and well being survey trying to make it easier for practice owners to be really proactive and gaining insight on how is my team doing? How are they really feeling? And identifying some of those areas of when certain people aren't feeling respected? And I think one of the most dangerous things really is the employee who Seems like they're doing great. The one that you can just count on, they always seem okay because we do have a lot of people pleasers in this profession or that fawn response where on the outside they look great and everything is fine, but on the inside it really is a little bit of a ticking time bomb. They're feeling really stressed and yet the leadership just doesn't know because they're maybe not checking in or they haven't created this safety where people really feel comfortable sharing how they're feeling. Do you see that sometimes with practice owners being surprised or with vets who are wanting to leave, but maybe haven't had honest conversations to share how they're feeling with leadership?

Stacy Pursell:

Yes, frequently, because a lot of times people make the decision to leave and it's easier for them to think about leaving than it is to think about having those tough conversations with leadership and staying. And I'll often ask my candidates who I'm talking with about making a change and they give me the reasons that they're looking to make a change and I'll say, have you addressed this with the leadership there? And sometimes they'll say yes, sometimes they'll say yes, but nothing's changing, and sometimes they'll say no because I don't feel comfortable expressing how I feel. So I'm just going to leave instead. So sometimes the leadership is surprised when the person turns in their notice. But you know, one of the things, going back to that conversation about the culture of respect, one of the things that I've heard Over the years from a number of veterinarians is there might be you know, somebody in that hospital that's a very high producer And that high producer may not be treating other people with respect, but the practice doesn't address that because this person's a high producer. And I remember this this veterinarian who left her job and went to another practice because that was the case. There was a very high producer in the practice that was not treating other people in the hospital with respect. And then management didn't want to address that because this person's making a lot of money, so we're not going to, do anything to address that. So this veterinarian left to go somewhere else.

Amelia:

Yeah, that's really interesting that you mention that, and I think it's a good example of how many hospitals are operating in survival mode, and so it's like looking at the numbers day to day, there can be that fear of rocking the boat or looking at that high producer and not wanting to lose that, but not necessarily zooming out and looking at what are the effects of having someone who is creating that culture of not feeling respected or supported, what is that doing to the retention of everybody else? Or is that causing drama that's actually decreasing productivity or increasing mistakes? I think it's so important that we are looking at the full picture versus tolerating that kind of Disrespect just because of the numbers.

Stacy Pursell:

And I would say another reason, too, that I hear often why veterinarians leave a practice is because the practice is understaffed, and we know that there's a been a shortage of veterinarians, but also other members in practices, technicians and practice managers. And there's just a shortage of talent everywhere, but people want to work in an environment where they're not understaffed and they want to have that support there. Because if they don't have the support, then that's something that leads to overwhelm when you don't have enough support to assist you.

Amelia:

Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes what I do see is those hospitals having this mindset though of, okay, we have to push through. We're understaffed. It's hard, but as soon as we hire someone, then it will be better. But in the meantime, everybody else is feeling exhausted. And instead of thinking, okay, what do we need to do to support the team that we do have so that we can really create an environment that actually does attract ideal candidates, they end up just really creating an environment that's making it even more likely to continue to be understaffed.

I'm pausing this conversation for a moment to add if any of this is sounding familiar, like feeling stuck and wanting to change, but not really knowing which direction you want to go in, working at a practice that's understaffed, avoiding a conversation that could make your current job so much better, or being a leader who hasn't had time to check in with your staff recently, or you're struggling with being understaffed, have a resource to meet you where you're at, so that you can take the first step towards creating change. Three resources that you should know about. One, my free beat the burnout resource this includes four videos that are approved for four hours of CE. That are an amazing place to start with everything that we're talking about today. Two, the workplace satisfaction and wellbeing survey that I mentioned, I also call it the unicorn vet hospital survey I want it to be as easy as possible for practice owners to get individual feedback from every single member of their team. And I also believe that every team member needs a safe, confidential space to provide honest feedback and to feel like their voice is heard. And this survey accomplishes both of those things and you'll receive a free report of your hospital's main findings so that you know exactly how you're doing and exactly where to focus in order to be supporting you and your team. And then finally I have three and six month coaching programs where you'll get group and individual support to help you to start creating change in your life that feels like a breath of fresh air. As a bonus, these are also approved for eight hours of CE. To learn more, you can check out the links in the show notes or to start a conversation, you can email me at amelia@lifeboost.today, or connect with me on Instagram I'm@lifeboostwithamelia. Okay. Back to the conversation.

Stacy Pursell:

I have a story along those lines. So this is a few years ago we had a client. He's now sold his practice, but. We're working with this client and he said that one of the pet owners was very rude to the staff and Then when this pet owner was trying to get another appointment is this is you know back when people were weeks Scheduled out and they said we can't get you in for a couple weeks and this pet owner made some very threatening comments got Everybody really upset and the practice owner just said you know what I'm gonna close the practice down for a day And he did he closed the Practice down. He said, We're gonna have a wellness day. He brought food trucks into the parking lot and they all brought their lawn chairs. They sat outside. They all just, enjoyed being together out in the parking lot and had the food trucks. And he said that was like one of the best days they had and they were all bonding together, but he just said, I could tell that my team was stressed and so he said, we're just going to take a time out, close the practice for a day, let everybody rest and then we'll open up the practice. And I thought that was, very unusual, unique, but I thought that was a really neat thing that they did.

Amelia:

Oh, yeah. I love hearing that. What a great act of leadership and really recognizing that the well being of the team is so important and just to pause and give them that day and to send that really clear message of you are a priority and I respect you and want you to feel supported. That's awesome. I hope we can have more of that

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

I'm sure the team talks about it, to this day. I'm sure they talk about it because that's what they remember. And again, feeling so supportive. I think another thing that practices are doing are taking examples from some companies and having stay interviews, not just performance reviews, but, stay reviews like off the record type things and says, tell me, what can we do to make this better? What can we do to help you support you And I think that's, just listening to, the veterinarians and the technicians and the practice managers and the whole staff is really important because That, shows that the practice does care and that they're willing to actually, and if they're willing to make the changes, and sometimes these changes are just nothing much at all giving people a little bit of time to write, do records or something, or it's not a lot of changes and just. Making sure that they are supported and they are listened to. I think that's so important.

Stacy Pursell:

Yeah, you And I even saw practice just adjust somebody's schedule by about 15 minutes just, to take a child to school or there was a veterinarian that he wanted to go to the gym every morning and that made him feel better before going to work. And so I've seen practices just, adjust the schedule even by 15 minutes. 15 minutes just to accommodate, somebody's schedule. On the flip side. I've seen, some employers being very inflexible. There was a doctor that was a single mom and this practice was trying to hire her and she said, I can work every other Saturday. She shared custody with her ex husband, and they said, no, you have to work every single Saturday, and they lost a great doctor because, she would work every other Saturday, but not every Saturday. And in this day and age, it's almost impossible to find a doctor that will work every Saturday, unless they want to work the weekend schedule, but flexibility goes a long way and just, working in a, you want to feel, it has to be a win for both parties. It can't be a one sided relationship or it's not going to be long lasting. Leaders need to be able to work with people so that it's a win for everyone.

Amelia:

Yeah, I think you both highlighted something so important of just feeling really seen and heard is huge. And I love Stacy, how you are talking about sometimes it can be just the littlest thing, like 15 minute change. But I think when you are curious what does work life balance look like for you? And you can find okay, if maybe going to the gym or making it to that workout class is important. Okay. Can we at least just change your schedule just a little bit. So you're able to do that. Those little things do just go so far and I don't think it's really the norm. And so that is really awesome news for practices, because I think those that do take the time to create a safe space and to really want to listen and to get curious about those changes is such a powerful way to really stand out right now

Stacy Pursell:

Well, I would say that, when you're an employer, when you're in a leadership position, it doesn't have to be a one size fits all, because everybody has different things that are important to them. This person, it might be very important to this doctor that I get to drop my child off at school every day personally, or to this doctor to get to go to the workout class, or this doctor might have something going on during lunch. And everybody has different needs. And when you're hiring, you need to find out what's important to that person. And when they become your employee, you need to know what's important to that person. And if they, need a 15 minute difference with their schedule, that might work for them. This other person that might not be their want or need, they might have something else. Like they might need an extra day off for CE or a little extra money to spend towards CE but meet people where they are and figure out what's important to the individual, it doesn't have to be one size fits all for everyone in the practice.

Amelia:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

then it goes both ways too. Somebody who might need to start later, they might be able to stay later too. Or somebody that needs more time at lunch, maybe they can fill in at, another weekend shift or something. Because again, as Stacy mentioned, everybody's needs are different and you can't assume, somebody's needs pretty much have to ask and, and then use the whole team to work together. And I think once the team, is working together and seeing how people are filling, their needs and getting to do their things that make their work life balance important and see how it makes their work life balance important by all working together. That's part of the culture too.

Amelia:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that is so key, like asking and not making assumptions. And I've seen, even with some of the survey results for hospitals, these practice owners who have even taken their own pay cut because they knew that their team wasn't really happy with Compensation and so they were trying to give bonuses or raises, but not necessarily finding out like why specifically they were wanting that or what would be enough money and so they had done that, but they got their survey results and everybody was still unhappy. And so I think that's an example of it's really important to get specific on what does that look like for the individual versus trying to just make these blanket changes, and hoping it'll help. So I'm curious to shift a little bit. But along those lines of certain people, sometimes avoiding conversations that could make a huge difference. What are some things that you think we need to be having more honest and Open conversations about that could help make Vet Med more sustainable?

Stacy Pursell:

I think that there needs to be more training on communication skills and also business skills and I think that I know the colleges have You know, I know their curriculum is very full They have a lot of things on the medical side to teach but there needs to be more training starting in the vet schools with more business skills and Communication skills Because people need tools and their toolbox and if they don't know how to communicate like somebody that's afraid to go to their employer and approach them about a challenge or a problem or an issue. If they had some communication training on how to bring that up they would be much more comfortable and confident. I think there also needs to be more training on leadership. Also negotiation skills because people are negotiating more today than they ever have. People are changing jobs more often. And and you don't just negotiate when you're changing jobs, but if you're in a leadership role or an employer, you're having to negotiate with your staff. And it's not just about salary compensation and benefits. People are negotiating on a daily basis. They're negotiating schedules or negotiating with coworkers, like I'll take this case or you take that client. So I think that people just need more training in the vet profession on leadership, communication, business skills, and negotiation skills.

Amelia:

Yeah. I think, of course, the clinical side is so important, but so much of Vet Med, no matter where you go, whether it's industry or clinical practice, those communication skills, negotiating, that is so key. And there's one book that I found so helpful, it's called"crucial conversations: tools for talking when the stakes are high" but it's an amazing book. It has so many great tips for navigating challenging conversations, tips for negotiating in a way where both sides are benefiting. So I've loved that.

Stacy Pursell:

And like what you said in negotiation where both sides are, it has to be a win because if one side is getting what they want and the other person is not getting what they want, that's not going to be a long lasting relationship So you want a negotiation to be a win for both parties.

Amelia:

Absolutely. Yeah. And really, it's even in clinical practice, when we're with the pet owner, that is a negotiation. And I think it's always helpful focusing on, okay, what's a common shared goal that we both want? And how can we speak to that as we work to find a solution that makes sense for both?

Stacy Pursell:

Yes. So true.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

I think veterinarians know that, when they're dealing with clients, the common goal is the patient and. Focusing on the patient, especially in difficult conversations. That can really help, but I agree with what Stacy said, as far as the team, making it a win and, learning how to communicate, people have to feel safe in these communications scenarios too. And if they have to ask for boundaries or needs, or certain accommodations. I work with people that have neurodiversity and there are certain accommodations that people feel they need, but they're afraid to ask about it because they just don't feel safe. But then I like to change it to accessibility instead of accommodations. What changes could be good for the whole team. And it could be little things, as I mentioned before, little things, as far as scheduling or a little more time or something, that would be good for the whole team. One of the things that I think really helps people with neurodiverse issues is the fear free practices that are going on right now, because, those same fear free practices help the patients, but they also help the staff no matter what because it gives them a more and more sense of, peace as far as how this appointment is going to go and what are the options. And I think that's very helpful too. we need about more accessibility for everybody instead of accommodations for a few.

Stacy Pursell:

I got my fear free certification on, being a pet sitter. I went through the course and got certified.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

Oh, great. I'm working on mine. Good.

Amelia:

I'm certified to it. It really does make a huge difference. Having especially doing relief and being in different environments. It's huge when we are being proactive and creating a positive experience for the pet. And I really believe we need to adopt a fear free approach for, Humans too we need to be doing the same exact thing of being able to recognize signs of a stress response. For example, that frustrated owner who's being challenging or that co worker who's in a bad mood. That's just fight. It means that they are scared. So we need to pause and just think about what needs to happen so we can reestablish safety.

Stacy Pursell:

You know, I have a quick story I want to share about that. This was a number of years ago, but there was a veterinarian that I was working with and she was in a clinical practice and she did not feel like it was a good cultural fit. And so I was working with her to, help her make a change to another practice. And she had an offer with one of our clients and this was shocking to me, but I'll never forget the story. She had a really good offer with one of our clients, but she was these were her words. She said she was so afraid of her current boss. And she was so afraid to go turn in her resignation because she was afraid of how he was going to react that she turned down our client's offer and decided to stay. And I said, That right there is the very reason that you need to leave because, you were working with me because it was not a good cultural fit. She did not like the leadership there, but at the end of the day, she went through an interview process, got an offer and decided to stay because she was so fearful to turn in her resignation.

Amelia:

that's devastating. So That leads into, I'm curious, what advice would you give to someone who tends to avoid difficult conversations because I don't think she's alone and how terrible right to stay stuck in a situation that is not working for you and decreasing quality of life just because you're avoiding, one conversation. So I'd love to hear from either of you. Do you well,

Stacy Pursell:

you have to take care of yourself and, while loyalty is a good trait, You don't want to, if you think about your career, you don't want to be so loyal to an employer that you're hurting yourself. if this person was being negatively impacted by the culture there, and she was so afraid to go in and resign, You know, she was putting loyalty or fear over her own personal needs. And so while loyalty is a good trait for people to have, if it's hurting themselves they have to do what's best for themselves and that situation, it was not best for her to stay in a bad situation. It was in her own best interest. The practice where she had the offer was a great practice. The owner, it was so positive. It was a good environment. It would have been better for her to have made that move. Um, She let fear of a difficult conversation get in the way of her progressing in a positive way. to a better place in her career.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

I certainly agree with that. thinking of yourself and your career first over what somebody is going to say. Somebody once said, if you keep doing the same thing over and expect the different results, that's a different definition of insanity

Stacy Pursell:

I don't know. I think Einstein said that.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

you'll probably say that. But sometimes it helps to practice conversations with, a friend. And, just do some visualization or actually practice with somebody and tell the friend, what's the situation is so the friend can, react terribly or whatever is expected. And then where do you go from there? And so just having, a little bit of practice might be helpful. But again, you gotta visualize. How would my life be if I was not in this practice? How would my life be if I did not have this, manager? And then, looking at what could be rather than what is.

Amelia:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that those are very good tips. And I see this a lot with those who I work with. And I think one thing that does help is understanding why it's so hard and in, So many cases we have been really selected and rewarded for self sacrificing in a way and making sure everyone around us is happy and that leads us to that fawn response or that people pleasing. And it's like the thought of, Disappointing someone or making somebody unhappy to our nervous system, it really feels like we are being chased by a lion, like it feels life threatening, even though logically we can think like it's not that scary. And so one thing that I've found really helpful is learning anti anxiety tools too, so that when you notice this pattern of okay, I'm about to have this conversation and I'm noticing I don't want to have it. Doing something and it can be like passing a pen back and forth between your hands can help to shift out of that state, but that can work as a pattern interrupt. So that and like Deb, for example, you're talking about rehearsing with somebody. That would be a perfect time to do it where they're imagining having that conversation. They do an anti anxiety tool to shift out of that fight or flight response a little bit, and then practicing what they're going to say so that it's a little bit easier. That can help a lot and remembering one moment of a difficult conversation can mean a lifetime that is more comfortable. And sometimes thinking about. The other side is there some kind of reward or way that I can celebrate after, or someone who can support me through that, what I call success hangover of that feeling, like after you've been brave and had that tough conversation, there may be these feelings of regret or like that was too much afterwards and knowing that's okay. That's not a problem. Having someone to give you a high five that you made it through that. You

Stacy Pursell:

want to live your life without regrets. And, sometimes people don't take chances. They don't take risks because they're afraid of what if this happens? What if that happens? And there was a veterinarian a number of years ago who was working in industry. And I was working with her. And One of our clients had offered her a position that was a higher level position and she turned it down out of fear of making a change. And then we ended up placing somebody else in the position and six months later she called me back and she said, I really regret doing that. There was a she's not a veterinarian, but she works in industry and she she was interviewing with one of our clients and our client made her an offer for a higher level position. This is a marketing. And she said, I don't know if I'm qualified. I don't know if I'm capable. She had a lot of self doubt. She was very qualified, very capable. But she had a lot of self doubt about what if I can't do this? And our client was a female leader and said, she is so capable. She's selling herself short. I've noticed over the last 27 years, That I would say, because I've worked with thousands of people men and women, I would say women tend to, I see more women selling themselves short. There'll be a job post and sometimes men that are not qualified will apply and they'll try to convince them. And that's something I've noticed over the years, but you want to live your life without regret. You don't want to look back and you might be thinking if I do this, that's a risk. What if something bad happens? What if something good happens? What if? What if you take that risk and this is an amazing opportunity. And looking back, you're so glad you, you did it? And sometimes, in your career, you have to take a risk in order to grow, because if you're, sometimes the status quo just, maybe it feels easier cause I don't have to take a risk. But I think a lot of times growth comes from taking a risk and putting yourself out there and being uncomfortable.

Amelia:

Yeah. Yeah. And when that growth is aligned with your values and the things that are important that can lead to such exciting places versus staying stuck in an environment that's just no longer working for you. And you also really highlighted that, that fear of having maybe high expectations and feeling like some of that imposter syndrome. And that is one thing that I think that we can be doing better in vet school because I think we are Really selecting and rewarding for that perfectionism, right? Like in order to get into vet school you have done everything perfect and Yet in the real world, that's not possible.

Stacy Pursell:

I was at a conference And I was talking, there were about five or six of us there and I was talking to all senior leaders mostly veterinarians in different companies and the topic of imposter syndrome came up and every one of them said they still have imposter syndrome and some of these I do a podcast too and some of these people have been on my podcast and you look up and these are the leaders in the industry. And if you talk to them, they still have imposter syndrome today.

Amelia:

love that you're sharing that. That's one of the things that really helped me with not seeing that as a problem. Like those thoughts are not a problem as long as you don't give them all the power, right? Just knowing that we all have those thoughts. Thank you for sharing that.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

And Stacy, you've given some great examples of veterinarians that have worked with, non animal health companies, other types of companies because of their skills and expertise. And I think veterinarians and especially students need to see more examples of this, need to see what their education and their experience can lead to. The animal health industry is only you know, one aspect of non clinical practice. But, veterinarians work for the human health industry and environmental health, social health, it's all one health. Who better than veterinarians to really, delve into the one health? And I think people need to see more examples. of this and seeing, Oh, yeah, I could do that or seeing, I have the skills that I could, learn more and be able to do something like that. So that might help some of that imposter syndrome too.

Stacy Pursell:

And that's so true. And you what, the number one thing that give people more access to these opportunities is their network. So I went and spoke at one of the veterinary schools last year and I told the students, I said one of the most important things to remember, like starting now while you're in school is to develop a network because the bigger your network is, the more access you have to opportunities because when people know who you are, when they know your skill set and a position comes open within their organization, they're going to know who you are. They're going to think of you. And so you don't want to just build a network. You want to nurture your network. You want to stay in touch with your network and don't just Nurture your network when you need a new job, just continue to nurture your network because you're going to have more access to opportunities, the bigger your network. And this is such a small profession. You don't want to burn bridges. If somebody burns a bridge and I've seen this happen. I've seen somebody go into an interview process and they'll ghost an employer, they won't show up for an interview. And then a year later, I've seen this happen. They try to get a job with that same employer and that employer remembers that person didn't show up for an interview where they ghosted, they burned a bridge. And so it's so important to not burn bridges and have the biggest network you can, because then you'll have more access to these different, opportunities. And sometimes like Deb said, these opportunities may not be anything that you ever even thought of. And they just come up and somebody knew about you and they mentioned this opportunity to you and now you're being considered for it.

Amelia:

Yeah. It is a small profession and I've found it, it's really supportive. Like when you do start connecting with others, so many are really happy to support each other and to remember you. And I think there are so many opportunities that can open up when you do. When you just start getting curious and keeping in mind having that positive mindset really embracing curiosity versus judgment, just because you never know which interactions going to open a really great door for you.

Stacy Pursell:

I think curiosity is such an important skill to have stay curious. Your learning does not stop when you graduate from veterinary school, stay curious throughout your entire career.

Amelia:

I agree. I think that doing that one thing has been huge for me ditching judgment embracing curiosity. Absolutely.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

And I agree so much with the networking and, just being, willing to talk to people and listen to people. Not just talk, but listen to people to be interesting. You have to be interested.

Amelia:

That's a good tip.

Stacy Pursell:

Listening skills are very important. I think there needs to be more training on not just, verbal and written communication, but also listening. Because if you're not listening, you're missing out on a lot of good information that would be good for you to know.

Amelia:

So true for everyone. And that goes back to the hospitals too, listening to their team. Awesome. So I wanna be respectful of your time. So I have one closing question, but I really appreciate all that you both have shared. I think this has been so valuable. So this kind of summarizes what's really important. When do you feel most alive?

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

I feel most alive when I've been able to help somebody be the best possible version of themselves. And, I do a lot of volunteer work. And one of the things I do is I teach community education classes. Just last week, I taught a class on women in leadership. And one of the students was Just all bent for complaining about her job in I. T. and the male dominated environment. And, really wasn't interested in being a leader. Just pretty much wanted to complain about her job. Which we already talked about earlier this this session. And, eventually I went to, what are the things you're really good at? And what are the things you really love to do? And what is the thing that the world needs? And what is the thing that, you can get paid for? And it's a graphic thing and it's a Japanese graphic called Ikejai. And basically it's a sweet spot. If you can do something that you really love, that you're really good at, what the world needs, and that people will pay for that's a sweet spot and she thought about she could use her IT experience to develop programs in order to help people Construct and Work on crochet projects now. I don't know anything about crochet, but this person really did and Love crochet and She was working this out in her mind that she would develop these programs that would help people design, a pattern and figure out what they needed for this pattern and actually do it, do the patterns and do this crochet thing. And she's thinking, that's what I'm going to do. And it just came to her, I didn't do it, she did it herself, and that was really rewarding.

Amelia:

I bet. I love that and that's so good to keep in mind, finding that sweet spot after this whole conversation.

Stacy Pursell:

Yeah, I love what you said, Deb. And I was also going to say when I'm helping others I love to solve problems. I'm a problem solver. So when somebody comes to me, whether that be an employer that has a challenging hiring need, they've been looking for somebody and they can't find this person. And I can help them find that I feel most alive or a candidate. They're looking for a new position and I can help put them in the right role. And then also, my, my family my, my youngest child is a senior in high school. I've got three in college. One's about to graduate. One is graduated and she works in the industry. I have three kids that are working in this industry. One in Florida and then one that's in college is doing work in the industry. The one that's about to graduate is going to work in the industry and just seeing them thrive, seeing them pursue their passions. It's like I'm raised my kids and now they're going off into the world pursuing their passions. I feel alive when I see them doing that. Yeah,

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

You have an amazing family.

Stacy Pursell:

Thank you. Thank you. It's chaotic sometimes. I'm looking forward to next week because I'm going to get to see all of my kids. But it's it's chaotic sometimes when we're all together, but it's so much fun.

Amelia:

oh, I love both of those answers and it certainly sounds like you have a gift, Stacy, for helping people to find that perfect fit in helping them problem solve.

Stacy Pursell:

I love what I do. And Deb and I have worked together for So many years, I always enjoy the opportunity to collaborate with Deb. And thank you, Amelia, for this platform and all that you're doing to make a positive impact on the veterinary profession. So enjoyed having this conversation with both of you today.

Amelia:

Thank you, I've

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

And we're all members of the American Association of Industry Veterinarians. That's

Amelia:

Yeah, it's great. And also one last final thing. I know you both are doing great things. So how can people get in touch with you and do you have any resources that you want to share or upcoming events?

Stacy Pursell:

Yes. So people can find me on the vet recruiter website, it's www. thevetrecruiter. com. We have lots of free resources. If somebody needs help with their resume, there's a free resume tool there. We have access to job opportunities there. We send out a career newsletter that goes out once a month. So there's tips for employers on hiring, there's tips for candidates or job seekers on looking for a job. I go to many of the conferences. I'll be at VMX, I'll be at WVC and you can connect with me on social media, especially on LinkedIn.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

thank you. Yes I'm on LinkedIn. People can also contact me through AAIVET. org, AAIVET. org. And I represent the group on the House of Delegates for the AVMA. I also share a program at VMX called Adult Learning and Leading. AAIV sponsored this. And we have, a great lineup of programs. It's Saturday all day. AAIV will have a networking reception on Sunday morning from seven 30 to nine. It's in the Hilton. I'm not sure exactly where yet, but,, that'll be on our newsletters and our website. A IV vet.org.

Stacy Pursell:

I'll be there.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

I hope you'll be there.

Amelia:

I will be too.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

And and then we're doing a couple of virtual sessions at VMX. Dr. Timothy Smaha and I are doing a couple on Career on Tuesday night. It's virtual, but we're available on Tuesday night for questions and, yes. And then we'll have a presence at AVMA convention too. And we have informal networking receptions throughout the year and also wonderful webinars like Stacy is going to do in December.

Stacy Pursell:

Yes. I'm looking forward to that.

Amelia:

Yeah. The AAIV really is wonderful. Definitely encourage going to some of those networking events. That's a great way to practice connecting with others and having that positive mindset and yeah, Deb, you are just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to all things industry and finding the right match. So I really appreciate both of you and your time and for sharing your wisdom.

Stacy Pursell:

Thank you for having us here. It was a pleasure.

Dr. Debra Nickelson:

Thank you, Amelia. Great to see you again, Stacy. We'll see you later.

Stacy Pursell:

Yeah. Good to see you both, and I look forward to seeing you both in person again soon.

Absolutely. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Let's do a quick recap, because this is a great example of how the three life boosts C's compassion, curiosity, and connection will always help you to move forward anytime something's feeling card or you're feeling stuck. So compassion have compassion for yourself. Don't stay stuck in a job that's making you unhappy- have that conversation that could make things so much better at your current job, or instead of focusing on what you don't like and your job start allowing yourself to think about what you want instead. There truly are endless opportunities so that vet med can work for you. And even if you are having self doubt, remember that the leaders you look up to are having those same thoughts too. The only difference is that they haven't let it hold them back. And as a leader, if things are feeling hard first check in with yourself and what you need. And then remember that compassion for your team and creating a culture of respect is the most important thing that you can do to improve retention and to be attracting candidates that you want. And then curiosity, when something isn't working, get curious about what you want instead. And keeping his mind as a practice owner, that could mean getting really specific with each employee. What do they need when it comes to work-life balance? Maybe something like just a 15 minute adjustment in the schedule could mean the world to them. And then connection, make sure that you're connecting with yourself, your body, mind, and heart and tuning into what your values are, because that can be such a powerful guiding light when deciding when it's worthwhile to go outside of your comfort zone and to make a change for that growth. And connect with others. Networking is so key in order to learn what opportunities are out there and to start conversations that could really open the door to an opportunity that will change your life. And I know as an associate, I felt like there was no reason to be networking. And now I'm at a point where it really is so fulfilling getting to connect with the so many incredible people in our profession, and you really will be amazed what happens when you just start reaching out and having those conversations. And if you'd like support finding fulfillment in vet med, that's exactly what my coaching programs are designed to do. Imagine a month from now, people are already commenting on how much calmer and happier you seem. That is the kind of change that I support you with. You'll have support with nervous system regulation, navigating tough conversations, negotiating, and figuring out what path is right for you. While also making positive changes that support your energy and sanity in all aspects of life like creating healthy habits you actually enjoy finding the food that works best for your unique body, improving gut health and blood sugar regulation, and more. All aspects of your life influence all aspects of your health and all aspects of your health influence, all aspects of life. That's why, when something isn't working in your life, we look at all the puzzle pieces so that we can come up with a plan that adds energy, pleasure and fulfillment back into your life. To find out which program or resource is the best place to start, you can fill out the questions that I linked to in the show notes to start a conversation. Or you can schedule a 30 minute call. You can also learn more on my website, www.life boost.today. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please take a minute to share it with somebody else who you think could benefit or leave a review. And I know it's a little bit annoying to take the time to leave a review. So as a thank you send me an email at a amelia@lifeboost.Today. Once you do that I will send you a guided mental rehearsal. So that's actually perfect for everything we talked about today. When you do mental rehearsal, it actually lights up the parts of your brain as if you are doing that thing. And this is what elite athletes use and top CEOs use in order to perform at their best. And so that means, imagine that you are about to be having a tough conversation with your boss, you can do this mental rehearsal to actually help your brain to prepare to navigate that in a way that feels successful. So leave a review, send me an email, and I can't wait to share that with you.